Speaker 1 00:00:12 Hello and welcome to the Strengthening Your Marriage podcast with Jeremy and Hailey. You are tuning in part two of the theme when your marriage isn't thriving. And Haley and I are just gonna jump straight in to pick up where we left things in part one with a revisiting the stage of our marriage that we've shared about before, where we would certainly say our marriage was not thriving. Uh, so let's get into it now, Haley, I guess if we revisit that scene, knowing what we know now mm-hmm. But didn't know back then. Mm-hmm. Or should we have a tough period up ahead of us? What, what do you think the answers <laugh>? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to those questions are what would it look like for us to hope in God mm-hmm. <affirmative>?
Speaker 2 00:01:03 Yeah. I guess the natural temptation would be hoping for things to get to a good place again. Yeah. And things changing. Yeah. Um, that's naturally where I think my mind will tend to go, but I think the difference would be rather than yeah, putting, investing my hope in things changing, knowing that God is doing me good in the current circumstances, and that he's actually orchestrated that to grow me, to know him better, and he's doing good work in me and in both of us really. And that that's, that's what God's agenda is, that's what he's doing, and he's with me. Um, and so my focus is to be continuing to follow him and grow to be like him and reflect his character to you and to find joy in doing that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I think in order to find joy in doing it, that's where the focus needs to be on him and what he's doing.
Speaker 2 00:02:10 Hmm. Um, 'cause whenever it's focused on the marriage, if it's Yeah. It's then your joy is very much dependent on where it's at and how it's going. And that can be up and down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of love, I think another thing is needing to remember the definition, like God's definition of love and what's in the best interest of that person. Because we talked before about, um, thinking at different times that what's in the best interest of someone else is a feeling good about themselves, feeling happy, having things easy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we can try and please our spouse, but that's not love. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and if you're wanting the relationship to work, that's another, I guess, skewed version of love. Mm-hmm. You can try and please the other person in order to try and make things better, but that's not always in their best interest. Mm-hmm. So it's, um, I mean, sometimes it will be mm-hmm. But sometimes other things are required. Yeah. Yeah. But g like gently helping to prompt sight or to ask probing questions or to Yeah. Yeah. Bring truth. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:29 There's a subtle difference, isn't there? And I think you're alluding to there is actually control that you desire the relationship to look a certain way. Yes. And you think that that's in your ability to bring about. Yeah. And so in trying to secure the very thing you are wanting Mm. It actually can skew what's in the best interest of the other person. Mm. And end up being like manipulation, coer coercing or Yeah. And that the response then when you relate that way towards your spouse who may be disengaged is actually, as I was suggesting earlier, is actually to push them further Yeah. Away. Yes. And not draw them exactly. Into relationship to draw them closer. Yeah. It's kind of counterproductive. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:04:15 Yes. And I think a helpful thing that you've often talked about is, um, asking the question, is the way I'm relating moving towards that person or pushing them away mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that can be a helpful indicator as to whether you are actually loving well or whether there's some self-interest going on under the status.
Speaker 1 00:04:35 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:04:36 Um, 'cause you can think, oh, but this is, this is true and this is right. But if you're pushing the other person away, um, in the way you're addressing it Yeah. Then there's something else going on, you're not moving towards them. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:53 One of the ideas that comes to mind actually comes from Paul Tripp's parenting book, and we discussed that a little bit last night, but he uses these images to talk about the way you relate to your children. And he says that we can either operate as ambassadors or as owners. And, and I think really we've got some work to do in this area in regards to our parenting. We, we chatted a bit about that, but I guess an ambassador is someone who represents someone else. And so their interest and concerns are shaped by the person they're representing rather than what they want. Whereas an owner says, this is mine. I'm entitled to this. I have jurisdiction over this, it kind of needs to bow to my will. And he's saying that parents often fall into that trap of relating to their children as if they own them, rather than thinking first and foremost, they actually are called to represent who God is to them in the way that they relate.
Speaker 1 00:05:59 And I guess the same reality is for husband and wife, that we are called to be God's representatives. Um, husband is called to be that to his wife, and a wife is called that to be that to husband. And so it just changes the way we try and get about a good outcome in our marriage. That doesn't mean that we're not still looking for a good outcome, but we're chatting last night that idea that if things are not all that you desire to be in their marriage, in your marriage, instead of, I guess demanding or expecting in return, uh, it kind of brings your own desires in into line a bit in terms of their constrained a bit by God's desires. They're, um, pulled into their proper place back into proportion, rather than being this all consuming thing that your marriage is not what you want it to be.
Speaker 1 00:07:00 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you acknowledge the pain and the disappointment, and you, you bring that to God, you talk with him honestly about it, and you ask for his help, but you also recognize that you are to be his representative to your spouse. Mm-hmm. And that changes the way you have those conversations. Mm-hmm. So in the case of, for me, when I had a degree of blindness, like I, I did have some underlying sense that things weren't right between us. And we'd, we'd have these conversations and I would feel very, um, insecure. I would feel like maybe things were crumbling a bit, um, or like I was just destined never to be able to give what you were wanting. I felt maybe like I was condemned to that, that there was this underlying disappointment and pain that I'd kind of suppressed that was causing me to, to look elsewhere.
Speaker 1 00:07:53 And I guess what would've been helpful is, I guess just taking, taking time a a lot of time, I think, to talk about the things that you were observing, but just being like very gentle <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I guess one of the things I've picked up from my ability for counseling training is this ability to ask questions that give the other person insight. Yeah. So even without saying, this is what it is, this is what's going on for you, or I think this is going on between us, it's not that you can't say that, but, but you are wanting to draw the other person into relationship with you, and you're wanting to do them good in the process. And so you ask gentle questions that cause some reflection, some, some helpful looking at themselves that that might be the means by which God gives them sight <laugh> and helps them, uh, to see what's going on and mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:08:56 And, and I guess even there's an attitude of, you've talked about thankfulness before and thankfulness in seasons where our marriage hasn't been going well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I think it makes a huge difference to your spouse if you've got an attitude that isn't just fixed or just looking at what you don't have. Yes. But you're actually seeing the good that you do have. Yes. You're reminding yourself of that you are actively thanking God for that, and you're telling them, I really appreciate this about you. It just changes the whole tone and dynamic rather than feeling like, oh, um, things aren't going well in our marriage and my spouse thinks I'm the problem and these are my list of issues. <laugh>, it changes the dynamic from being interpreted that way to actually, I know there's some balance here. Hmm. I know some things that I am putting in that I'm, I'm trying really hard to put in. I'm trying, I am trying to be self-sacrificial in this way. I'm trying to consider your interest here and here. And you see that and you value that. You appreciate that. It just changes the, the dynamic, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 00:10:03 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I guess just on that as well, the humility to acknowledge that it's never one way problems either mm-hmm. <affirmative> that even if you do have maybe a more healthy perspective of what the relationship should be, even that you'll be still bringing destructive things to the relationship because, um, that's the nature of what we are as people. Um, the fact
Speaker 1 00:10:28 That God's not finished with us. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:10:30 God's not finished with us. We're broken people, we have Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we still have that self-centered thing going on some level Yeah. At some level. Yeah. Um, and so the humility to still be looking at what am I contributing to the dysfunction in the relationship and being, being willing to own that and work on that too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I think as well, um, like with our relationship in that season, I think from my perspective, I didn't even see it, um, that way. So I think I was actually blinded by the fact that I wanted the relationship to be something so much mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was blinded to what was going on for you. I didn't actually know what the issues were with you.
Speaker 1 00:11:20 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:11:21 Um, I thought that I was un lovely, and so you didn't love me <laugh>. Yeah. That's what I thought it was. Yeah. And so I wasn't even thinking in the categories of what's going on for you? How can I help you <laugh>? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 1 00:11:37 And I guess underlying this is kind of this idea that when you know God, he, he actually controls every single detail mm-hmm. <affirmative> of your life. The Bible's very clear, for example, that not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will. So he exercises his control over every detail, and that means over every detail of what we're facing in any given moment. And he also has some very strong promises about his commitment to do us good in those moments, in every moment, uh, when we trust him and we are looking to him, we belong to him. He, he's working to conform us into his likeness to make us like Jesus in our character. We, we've been talking about this, reflecting him. That's, that's what that's all about.
Speaker 2 00:12:32 That's also the same as the picture of the flourishing tree. Yeah. Yeah. All that we were meant to be. Yeah. Yeah. Transforming us into that.
Speaker 1 00:12:39 Yeah. Making us fully human. Yeah. They're always of talking about the same thing. And I guess what that means is if you are in a marriage now and, and you really feel like you're not thriving, there's, there's hope for you that's beyond just the possibility of your marriage changing. Mm-hmm. There's hope for you because God is committed to your good, even if your spouse was to remain unengaged, that's a, that's a hard thing to consider, but there's this dynamic of God working in you and for you and wanting you to see things about yourself that you wouldn't see any other way. And so you can be part of his process of, of participating in that, uh, seeing things about yourself, your own weaknesses, your own self-centeredness, um, ways of seeking his forgiveness and his help for change as you see those things about yourself. And then growing in and moving towards other people in the way that, that he does. And particularly growing towards your spouse even in the midst of things not being, or that you would like them to be.
Speaker 2 00:13:58 And I think, um, I'm realizing more and more just how key it is to know God really well and to keep getting to know him mm-hmm. <affirmative> in terms of reflecting that love. Because there's a lot there, like, and I think on the ground, when we realize that things aren't quite right, it always links back to we have a different view of what God is like mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, we think he's a bit harsh, or we think he's, um, we really need to know God well if we're going to reflect him well. Mm-hmm. And I think oftentimes when we're lacking wisdom as to how to love, well, it comes back to that we need to know him better. Mm-hmm. That's what I've been convicted of lately. I really need to know him better. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:14:41 So this is where Paul trip in the marriage seminars talks about being a tone of God's voice to our spouse or our children, or being the touch of his hand. We know God so well, we know what he's like to us in particular moments, that it doesn't take much then to know how we represent him well to our spouse or our kids in difficult moments for them. Just imagine that for a moment, that as you are speaking to your spouse in a season of your marriage not thriving, that you actually know God so well, that the way you speak reflects the kind of way that he speaks his tone of voice. Uh, you put your arm around your spouse and you provide the kind of comfort that you know that God himself provides because you've experienced firsthand, you know, him. And I guess just thinking about how this all works out tangibly, often the way we see God's character to us is actually through the other people in our lives.
Speaker 1 00:15:52 Uh, so if you are wondering, what does it look like to mirror God, to reflect him to my spouse, a good starting point might be some mature Christians that you have in your life, uh, people that you really trust who have loved you well, think about the particulars of the way they have loved you, the way they have responded to you in times of trouble, or times when you've been distressed. How is it that they've given you a glimpse of God's character in that moment? And then how can you embody those very same things towards your spouse? So one of the other things I've noted down here that you chatted about Hailey was the place of the Psalms and prayer when you find yourself in a marriage where things aren't what you'd want them to be. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:16:40 Yeah. I, um, so I did a Psalms class when we were at college, and that was really eyeopening for me, I guess particularly the idea of the lament psalms. And we looked at, is it Psalm 88? Yeah. Yeah. That is a completely bleak psalm. It doesn't end in a lift uplifted way. Mm. And that was just very striking to me that God invites us to talk to him. So honestly, that even, even if we can't move to a more positive place in that conversation, that that's okay. That we can be completely honest as to where we're at. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That the fact that we're seeking him in that moment is what he's after. It's not that he wants us to have our perspective all nice and clear mm-hmm. And right straight away, he just wants us to go to him. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:44 We don't have to sort ourselves out Yeah. And get our thoughts in order Yeah. Be all prim and proper. Yeah. But we, we go to him with whatever reaction we're experiencing, whatever unpleasant emotions we feel, whatever we're desiring and not getting Yeah. Over particular frustrations there are if we are being wronged or mistreated in some way.
Speaker 2 00:18:02 Yeah. Yeah. And even, even if we're feeling anger towards God or Yeah. Being uncertain. Like we can talk to him even about those things in our relationship with him. And I think that's what was particularly striking to me, <laugh>, that he's robust and I mean, he knows anyway, that he's robust enough that he wants us to have those conversations. And it's through those conversations that we do eventually start to move and grow in our thinking. And I think particularly if you're being wronged by someone, it is actually, it's really hurtful and it's really hard to deal with those negative emotions. And that hurt. And I feel like I'm still learning how to do that because Yeah. In some relationships, other relationships where that is the case, it's really hard to love. Well, like, you can still, you can act towards that person in a way that's kind, while still harboring kind of bitterness and resentment. It's really hard to know how to handle those strong emotions, and it very easily goes wrong. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's important to be taking the emotions to God <laugh>. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:19:14 Maybe I could just illustrate there, a good friend of ours, he uses this language. He, he'd grown up in a home where things were dysfunctional and where his input wasn't sort, where his emotions were not really given any weight. And this kind of dynamic of, of knowing God and, and what's pictured in the Psalms and that becoming real for him is like, I have a home. Like what he didn't have in his parental relationships and all that he desired and all the, the pain there. He, he found that he had with God, this, this listening ear and the ability to talk about wrongs, real wrongs done against him. Real pain, real heartache, as well as, as well as joys and, and richness and things that he appreciates <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:20:07 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I guess there's the fact that God judges as well in there that he will make things right. The wrongs. Right. And so we don't have to get revenge. 'cause we do that in subtle ways in relationships. Um, we feel like we need to get back at the other person or make them hurt the way they hurt us in some way, but in trusting Yeah. And trusting that role to God judging. Yeah. Yeah. So that we don't feel we have to do that <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:20:38 And I guess when we talk about wrongs and mistreatment, I guess there are certain categories where things are in a whole different category. Yes. Where there is something like abuse or domestic violence. And I guess our understanding of, of the Bible is, uh, certainly not that someone in that situation is compelled to stay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, but they certainly need the help of wise helpers Yeah. To, to come in and, uh, help them work out how to have a season Yeah. Of separation. I was thinking practically of a woman who shared of her experience of living, uh, separated from her husband for many years, but continuing to live in the same house. And she's a Christian and he kind of, you know, claimed to know God, but was quite disinterested. I mean, he'd been disengaged with the marriage, uh, for many years. And, uh, it was decided that they'd be best separating because of his, some manipulative patterns there.
Speaker 1 00:21:41 So they, they did separate, but continued to live together. And it was interesting just seeing her, asking questions of her husband, of her wanting what his good was, even though that was the state, their marriage is as she was talking openly about what good books she might be able to give to him that would be constructive for helping him get to know God, helping him to look at things like his anger, which can potentially be out of control. And, uh, the council she was given was, was actually, perhaps, I think not, not looking at the anger was, was necessarily the first step, but, but something that was more central in, in actually knowing God. But, but she was taking these small steps of moving toward her husband and seeking his interest, even though in, in lots of ways their relationship was still dysfunctional. And she described themselves as separated, but living in the same house. But I guess that illustrates the kind of things that we're talking about. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:22:43 I think as well, um, talking about like different levels of wrong, I think the humility of knowing ourselves well and the way that we wrong others, <laugh> the way we wrong God. Um, that's really helpful for proportionality as well. Keeping things in proportion and compassion and understanding towards others. Um, not calling wrong, right? But having that posture of humility, I think is really important.
Speaker 1 00:23:15 We might move to wrap it up there, I'm just gonna reiterate the two questions that I asked you earlier to help you continue to think about this and, and make it personal for you. First question was to think about a time in your marriage where things had been hard, perhaps where you haven't been thriving, and to assess where was your hope placed? If that's now, what do you think you are hoping in, uh, to get you through this tough season? And the second question is, yeah, what would it mean for you to hope in God during this time? What would it look like for you to know him and start to put in practice the kind of things that he desires for you, uh, and, and acting for the good of your spouse even when things are difficult? Right. Right. At this moment, potentially, or just one final reminder.
Speaker 1 00:24:12 If you've got any questions, uh, please write in via email if you'd like to via email,
[email protected] au, aya at church website at bitly, b I t ly slash marriage podcast, Bitly, b i LY slash marriage podcast. If you prefer to remain anonymous, I've now changed the form around so that you don't have to have, uh, a name or an email address. Uh, you could ignore the phone number field if you'd like, and just put your question in anonymously, and we'll take some time to mu it over and think about how, how we can interact with what's on your heart and the things that, uh, are important to you when you're thinking about marriage. So I mentioned at the start of this topic, A C C F podcast on Failure to Thrive marriages. And you can find that on the link I've already given you on our church website, just under where I've listed episode nine. And or alternatively, I'll give you a short link to get straight to the resource. Here it is, bit Italy, that's b i t dot lyford slash challenge in marriage. So Bitly, e i t ly slash challenge in marriage.
Speaker 1 00:25:52 Okay. Thanks again for listening.
