Speaker 1 00:00:10 Hello and welcome to the Strengthening Your Marriage Podcast with Jeremy and Hailey. This is episode five, and this episode is titled Habits of Confession and Forgiveness.
Speaker 2 00:00:22 Just wanted to start with a quick disclaimer. We recorded the bulk of this podcast in Newcastle in a different environment, and managed to pick up a bunch of background sounds and some microphone pop noises. I've done my best in a limited time to edit some of those, but the sound quality's not as good. You may even hear our youngest child, Amber, in the background as she was minded in another room at different points, but we hope you'll bear with it and still find the podcast useful.
Speaker 1 00:00:53 So again, we're gonna recap where we've been. Episode four was titled Restorative Love. The heart of last episode was about loving the way that God loves. God loves in a way that is about shaping us in his likeness. And so our love is to be patented after his, where we want, what's good for the other, and what's gonna make them truly human, all that God intended them to be so they can flourish. And we looked at ways that we can deviate other kind of definitions of love, I guess, that are a bit different. Halen, and I shared how we had been thinking about love as keeping someone happy, trying to please them, trying to make them feel emotionally good about themselves and how that is different to this restorative love that God has for us, and that that we're to have for our spouse. And then we looked at an area of life where we can grow in learning to show restorative love to our spouse.
Speaker 1 00:01:48 And Haley and I opened up about this area of constructive conflict where God has been working on us. So today our focus is on developing healthy habits of confession and forgiveness in marriage. And it's something that came up in Paul trip's, sessions on marriage, and certainly something that Haley and I have needed to grow in, in order for a real trust and and unity to be built in our marriage. I'm gonna read a quote from Paul Trip's session booklet. He asked the question, why do couples fail to experience the marriage of their dreams? They point the finger of blame and hold grudges. Instead, discover how to fight for your relationship by practicing confession and forgiveness each day. So trips suggesting that confession and forgiveness provides a bedrock to move forward in your relationship, and it's alternative to pointing the finger of blame and holding grudges. And Hailey, we were chatting earlier about this, and it reminded me of Genesis three of this experience of Adam and Eve realizing that they're naked before God and they just wanna cover themselves up. They wanna hide, run away, and then they point the finger at the other <laugh>. Adam said, it wasn't me, it was her. He said, it wasn't me, it was the snake. That kind of thing. Do you wanna talk a bit more about that, that experience of feeling naked, that experience of feeling exposed?
Speaker 3 00:03:11 Yeah. I guess it's very typical patterns and very natural patterns. Most of us, or all of us probably, that when we are shown up to be in the wrong naturally, we want to either justify ourselves or point the finger at external circumstances or other people. I guess the underlying drive is to try and make ourselves feel better that what we've done. So when we are convicted of having done the wrong thing, the sense of guilt and shame that comes with that. Mm-hmm. And the pointing and the covering up is a way of trying to deal with that. Mm-hmm. Because it's really unpleasant <laugh>. Mm-hmm. And the idea of confessing and owning what we've done can feel like it's going to destroy us because we're pretty confronting reality. The difference, though, for us as Christians is that we can actually face those things without them destroying us because of what Jesus has done. But without Jesus dealing with our guilt and our shame, it actually would be destroying ourselves to have that pronouncement made that, yes, you were wrong. Yes, you've done this thing, which is actually unacceptable, and as a result, you are unacceptable <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:04:20 So what you've said, Hailey, is that it's very hard to experience confession and forgiveness, I guess, with each other if we haven't already experienced that before God. Because naturally it's very hard to own our wrong and take responsibility for it, because that is such a threatening thing for us to do. Especially if we have a cherished image of who we'd like to be as a husband or a wife. And we have transgressed that image. We have gone against what we would like to be and what we're aiming for. It's very hard for us to face up to what, what we might have done because it tarnishes that image, but God actually allows us to face up to that. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:05:04 Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's certainly been something that's true for me, that I've found it hard to come to terms with, this is what I would like to be as a wife. Mm-hmm. But I've not been that <laugh>. It's hard to face up to.
Speaker 1 00:05:17 Hmm. So the thing with Adam and Eve in the garden is that when they realize what they've done and they realize their nakedness, they feel exposed, they feel shame over what they've done, and they fear being rejected. And that's what leads them to wanna hide, to cover themselves up, to pretend that nothing's wrong or to point the finger at one another. And I think that reality keeps us in marriage, right? <laugh>? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:05:39 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:05:39 <affirmative>. But if you're listening and you don't know God, when you're not sure if you know God, we hope that you'll stay with us because we think this is really, really important. And it has huge practical implications. But the experience of not knowing that you are wrong, your sin, your self-centeredness, ways that you have mistreated others, not knowing that that's forgiven and dealt with actually makes a huge difference to the way you live and thought it'd be worth referring to Psalm 32, which is a favorite Psalm of ours that we've spent some time in over the last few years written by David King of Israel. It's very interesting because it describes for me something very close to what I experienced in my high school years where I had a lot of anxiety. I was quite sensitive to some areas of not doing the good that I knew I should do.
Speaker 1 00:06:34 And then particular areas where I did things that were shameful, that were very hard to admit to others, and I, I knew they caused God offense. And so I went to great efforts to try and cover myself up to do good, to try and make myself a better person. So I spent all this effort and energy pouring to trying to do that, to, to cover myself up to, to take away my sense of guilt and my shame. But none of it worked. And David says this, he says, when I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long for day and night. Your hand was heavy on me. My strength was sat as in the heat of summer, then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, I'll confess my transgressions to the Lord, and you forgave the guilt of my sin.
Speaker 1 00:07:26 This experience of just not having confessed, and that inner turmoil that that creates, it's like wasting away trying to deal with this sense that things aren't right, that you are not right, and that you are out of relationship with God, and that the relationship has been damaged, but your efforts just don't get anywhere. But then he says, like the light at the end of the tunnel is he realizes he, he confesses, he, he owns, he's wrong before God. And that becomes the doorway to knowing God's forgiveness. And the start of the P time actually opens with a statement of blessing, of happy is the one who has his sins forgiven, whose transgressions are covered. This idea that there's a possibility for what we have done that's hurtful, that's damaging to others, that offense being taken away, being removed. And this state of innocence, he says that blessed is the one whose spirit is no deceit. Just quite huge. Do you wanna say some more about that?
Speaker 3 00:08:24 Yeah. And I guess the picture of the blessed person is the flourishing person. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:08:28 That's right. Um, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:08:30 Like we talked about earlier in the last part, the flourishing tree. Mm-hmm. Back in Psalm one. So it's picking up that language again.
Speaker 1 00:08:39 Mm-hmm. I guess this pattern of confession before God being the pathway to restored relationship with him and receiving his forgiveness and things being put right. That's the paradigm with the vertical relationship between us and God. But then it's also the paradigm for horizontal relationship relationship with us, between us and anyone else. And, and particularly in such a close relationship as marriage between a husband and a wife. Now, Haley, before we kind of unpack that a bit more in relation to marriage specifically, you had some more thoughts about Psalm 32 and a bit of that flow of thoughts there.
Speaker 3 00:09:16 Yeah. So early on, yeah. It talks about the experience of unconfessed sin and how that eats away at you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And the way we can Yeah. Justify ourselves or try and find other ways to feel better about ourselves, but underneath it does have that eating away effect. But then later on, after he confesses and experiences God's forgiveness, later on in the Psalm, God speaks and says, I'll instruct you and teach you in the way you should go. I'll counsel you with my loving eye on you. So just that idea that from there God offers to lead us in new ways when we do own what we've done. So it's like that idea of, I guess, the threat of confession and feeling like it's hard to own and it feels like it's going to leave you undone. God's saying, I'm not going to leave you there. This is actually the doorway to becoming what you want to be. You are not there yet, but this is the way forward. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I'm gonna help you with it. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:10:13 And that plays in your saying a bit to our expectations as in time, now that if we know God, the reality is that we have been forgiven. We are given the practical help of his spirit working to change us and to make us new. But that's a gradual process. It's not a one and done thing. And so we live in this time between Jesus having come to deal with sin, and between his return when everything's put right once, and for all this in between time that people call that the now, but not yet. And so we're a work in progress. And in this time, that pattern of going to God and confessing what we've done, that's offensive to him, that's been self-centered, that's been anti-social, that's impacted negatively on those around us. Owning that, going to him, talking to him about it and receiving his forgiveness, uh, then is the, the doorway to his, his help, his involvement, his personal direct involvement, and help for us to change and move forward in this time. And there's a parallel with, with that in marriage that we have that restoring concern <laugh> Yeah. For one another as husband and wife. Mm-hmm. When the other is able to come to us and say, you know, I really stuffed up there, I'm, I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me? I, I realize that hurt you <laugh>, and we can gladly say yes, <laugh>, and then open the door to be that instrument <laugh> that helps them move forward. Yeah. And be part of what God's doing in them.
Speaker 3 00:11:46 Yeah. Yeah. So just like understanding where we're placed in history and what God's doing at the moment and what he's said about what life will be <laugh> mm-hmm. Is really helpful for expectations of the other person and for ourselves as well. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:12:02 You wanna unpack that a bit more? You mentioned some of that earlier.
Speaker 3 00:12:05 Yeah. So I guess for myself, my responses to failure tends to be to beat myself up over it. And then other times there's covering up and sort of talking to others who might make me feel better about it. You know, oh, we all do that kind of thing. And that's understandable, those kind of conversations that make you feel better. But yeah, underneath, I think still a sense of, oh, it still wasn't right, <laugh>. Yeah. I guess remembering what God has said about the fact that we're not transformed yet. We're in the process. I'm still working on this. I still tend to fall into those patterns, but it helps me to be okay with the fact that I fail. Mm-hmm. So grieving it still, but not getting paralyzed by that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:12:57 And so you are learning to expect of yourself that you will respond in unhelpful ways, you will respond in selfish ways. Yeah. At times that impact negatively on me. Yeah. That impact negatively on the kids.
Speaker 3 00:13:12 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:13:13 And that's actually consistent with you being one of God's works in progress. Yeah. Who he's committed to, he's not finished with yet. Yeah. He's, he's working in and and changing and making more like Jesus. Yeah. Little moment by little moment, but you're not complete yet <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:13:31 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:13:32 So that's kind of what you learning to expect Yeah. Of yourself.
Speaker 3 00:13:37 Yeah. Yeah. So it allows me to call out what I've done as it is and not soften that, but yeah. Not to be destroyed by it or paralyzed by it because of the, I guess being disappointed myself, beating myself up over it. Yeah. Wishing that things were different. I'm getting kind of stuck there. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:13:58 So that's expectations of yourself as a wife. What about expectations of me as your husband?
Speaker 3 00:14:05 Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. So I guess that kind of perspective helps me when I've done something or haven't done something that's impact on me natively or failed to meet what I'd hoped. Our relationship, it helps me to be compassionate, both because I know I'm the same <laugh>, but also, yeah, that's what we expected this time and we're working towards change and helping one another. That goal is,
Speaker 1 00:14:37 So at this point, I just wanna read a second quote from Paul Trips study book. He says, confession is the doorway to growth and change in your relationship. Forgiveness is the fertile soil in which unity in marriage grows. So if you're listening, I've got a couple of application questions for you to make this personal for yourself. And again, if you're listening with your spouse, be really good to chat about these questions together. First question I'm gonna ask in two parts. So flagging that up front, what's your current pattern of handling your ways that you wrong your spouse? So when you think about in your relationship at the moment in your marriage, when you know that you've done something that has wrong the other, that has impacted negatively on them, perhaps some expression of self-interest, how do you deal with that? I guess the second part to the question is to ask you about how that might relate to your relationship with God.
Speaker 1 00:15:41 What does that show, do you think? Whatever that way of responding to the wrong that you've done, how does it reflect your relationship with God? I guess, for example, if you find it very hard to own something that you've done, and perhaps your pattern is to try and cover up or it's, it's to blame. And if that's the case, there's probably something else going on there. <laugh>, there might be a need for you to do business with God to go to him and tell him about the way you feel about the way you've impacted negatively on someone else. And actually the fact that you've offended him, that he offers grace and forgiveness to meet your need. Second question, what would it look like for you to practice a biblical habit of confession and forgiveness? What would it look like for you to practice a biblical habit of confession and forgiveness?
Speaker 1 00:16:31 We'll cover a bit more about what that looks like in this episode. And to apply this second question, I encourage you to pick one scene of a real wrong that's happened between you and your spouse. Pick one scene and try that out together. What would it look like to respond to that, where one of you is taking responsibility and the other is offering forgiveness? So Haley, maybe we can kick this off by talking about our current ways of responding to our role. I guess if we were to look at all the things in our marriage, this is probably one that God has really done some good work in over the nine and a half or so years we've been married. And maybe it would be helpful if I told the story of what happened on Saturday evening, just gone to kind of paint a picture of the kind of thing we are talking about, which I think is what the Bible's talking about when it's talking about confession and forgiveness and how that happens in our marriages.
Speaker 1 00:17:26 So it felt like a long Saturday I was pretty tired and dinner had drawn out a bit. I was ready to put the kids to bed. They were still sitting at the table eating their ice creams. And I got stuck into them about the fact that they had left their library books strung over the floor. Well, actually it was an empty CD case, and we've stopped them from being allowed to borrow from the library in the past. And that's because they haven't really learned the habit of putting away after themselves. We've asked them to, and they haven't done it. And so this is the first time they've been able to borrow in quite some time. That's not just because of Covid restrictions, but because of us putting our foot down and saying, no, you're not allowed to until you can show us that you look after the CDs that you borrow from mommy and Daddy's CD collection for your own CDs.
Speaker 1 00:18:16 So you can show that you're putting the CDs back in their cases and you put them away after you use them, you're not gonna be able to borrow from the library again. And just so happened that Hailey had forgotten about that. She'd taken the kids to the library be before I was really satisfied with them showing good signs of growth and progress here. And I just mentioned the fact that this CD was out. And then I just kind of got stuck into that about the fact that things were left roundabout. And I think in a subtle way, that's probably what I did, undermined Haley a bit, that wasn't the best way to raise it with her. The fact that she had taken them to the library before I was really on the same page with it. Them being allowed to go back and without having a system in place for as to where they were gonna put the library books and things like that.
Speaker 1 00:19:04 And so it was a legitimate concern and something that we needed to all talk about together. I needed to talk about it Hailey, probably first, and then talk about it with the kids. But I raised it in a moment of frustration, and that came across. And as I went away and a bit later got the kids' toothbrushes ready, I was just reminded of the fact that I had this perception of authority figures as I was young, who were always very critical of me. And I just thought of Heath and Rory feeling that because I had spoke in this frustration, having this perception of me as a father who's very critical of them. And I thought, you know, I probably didn't handle that so well. It is something that needs to be addressed. And then Jesus words came back to me with this kind of piercing clarity of him bringing, bringing us into judgment.
Speaker 1 00:19:53 Every careless word that we have spoken, I was like, wow. Yeah. They were careless words, a legitimate thing, but spoken about in a careless way that was really about me and the kids and Haley getting in the way of what I wanted, which was an ordered house. And I need to ask both the kids and Haley to forgive me. I've mishandled this. And so I did that with the boys when I took them individually to bear parade with them. And I verbalized that to them, and then verbalized that to God and, and ask for God's forgiveness, ask for their forgiveness. And then once they're in bed, came out to Haley and said, you, I'm really sorry. I realized I spoke those words in a careless way. I had realized you took them back to the library before we'd kind of agreed it was time they're allowed.
Speaker 1 00:20:38 I meant to talk about it with you. I forgot earlier this wasn't a good way to do it and realized it wasn't respecting you in a way. I brought that up. Will you forgive me? And Haley was gracious. She gave me a hug and she did. So that's an example. It's taking responsibility for what you've done and it's owning the impact of your actions on those around you. And it's specifically asking the others to forgive you, not just assuming that's your right, is actually realizing that they've got a willing part to play in responding to your owning of the particular role. And is there anything you'd wanna add to that? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:21:14 I guess one of the things that's helped us in this habit of confession and forgiveness has been the building of trust over time. And I think it would be a lot harder to have those kind of patterns without the trust that there now, I think it does get easier the more trust that is built. And I guess that these patterns are part of building trust too. But the more you feel safe with one another, more you're able to own and confess, because it's quite a vulnerable thing to do.
Speaker 1 00:21:45 So if you are living in a marriage where confession and forgiveness hasn't been the norm, taking that first step in owning what you've done is quite a scary thing to do because you don't know how your spouse might respond. And whether that's a situation where they might take advantage of the fact that you are abandoning you wrong <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And it may a sense of superiority or a bit of being walked over perhaps. And there's a sense in which talking about confession and forgiveness relates to what we talked about in an earlier episode, the fact that as God's changing us, he's moving us from something into something else. Mm. And I guess there are different understandings of forgiveness out there, but I think a biblical understanding is always forgiveness on the basis of someone who's wronged you, taking responsibility for what they've done of actually owning it. Yeah. That we can then grant forgiveness. And it's not the kind of situation where, you know, you want them to keep repeating their offense over and over and over without showing a desire to change, to move from whatever pattern of relating that's been harmful and to something good. <laugh>, do you wanna talk a bit more about that?
Speaker 3 00:23:05 Yeah. So I guess, I mean, Paul talks about the fact that love doesn't call wrong, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and yeah, I guess sometimes we can not want to raise something with our spouse because of the conflict or the discomfort that that will bring both for them and for us. But oftentimes that is more about us wanting to avoid that difficult situation rather than being willing to go through it for the sake, the growth of the other. And I guess it relates back to a definition of love. If we're wanting to help someone flourish God of discomfort.
Speaker 1 00:23:46 Mm-hmm. 'cause there's some greater good Yeah. To achieve that's it's this restorative concern. Yeah. That the other person will be moving towards being more whole, being more human flourishing. Yeah. Like that big tree becoming like Jesus bit by bit. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:24:02 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:03 I guess it relates to, to what you were saying earlier in terms of where we're at before God. So if our definition of dealing with wrong, if our pattern before God is to try and cover up or pretend that we're all okay or that that nothing happened or to point the finger at someone else, then that's probably what we might expect the other person to do when they're wrong. But when, when we've actually got a way of dealing with taking responsibility for our wrong, and actually knowing God fully gives us that the slate can be wipe clean and that he gives us hope for change by personally getting involved with us and and guiding us and helping us work out new ways of living, it actually really does change how we relate and deal with wrong in a marriage, doesn't it?
Speaker 3 00:24:51 Yeah. Yeah. Yep. It kind of gives you the platform to deal with things constructive.
Speaker 1 00:24:57 Yep. So I feel like by choosing this topic, I think it is really important and critical to marriage. But in some ways we may have just opened 10 worms as we realized, as we had a drive up to Newcastle this morning. We were chatting about this on the way we realize there's so much that could be said. It's really huge area to cover. But yes, we're just wanting to start a conversation that might be fruitful for you in terms of evaluating what patterns and habits you currently have in your marriage of, of dealing with your self-centeredness at times when that rear its head and gets in the way of your relationship, kind of the unity, the closeness of your relationship. How do you deal with that? I guess our conviction is that, that God really has resources that are sufficient to meet us at our point of need.
Speaker 1 00:25:49 I guess to pick up your point before about failure, one of the other passages in the Bible that we both found helpful at different times is in Hebrews chapter four, verses 14 to 16. And Jesus is pictured as the one who empathizes with us in our weakness. And the writer talks about the fact that he was tempted in every way just as we are and yet was without sin. So he knows our weakness. He identifies with the kind of ways that we go wrong, not that he ever walked down that path, but he felt the weight of the pressure to walk that way. So he knows what it's like to be in our shoes and he doesn't stand over and condemn, but he offers us grace and mercy. That passage says, according to our, our need at the moment. And perhaps it might be helpful, be helpful. I know that passage has meant a lot to you for you to share some of the points that that's impacted you.
Speaker 3 00:26:48 Yeah, I guess because my tendency has been to, like I said earlier, beat myself up when I go wrong. I've tended to have this harsh kind of internal voice. And I guess particularly with things like broken sleep, I've been particularly fatigued with the kids. And it just all feels quite overwhelming the first time I spoke to my mom about that situation kind of scenario and feeling like, how can God expect me to be responding helpfully and in good ways when I'm just so, so shattered? And my mom actually said, I think you're coming at this with the wrong view of God, that he's not standing over you pointing the finger and saying, you've stuffed up again. I expect a better of you. Don't touch. Yeah. Yeah. But actually the picture at that point is Jesus' merciful and faithful high priest who was human. He's not this distant removed deity who doesn't know what it's like to be exhausted and shattered and under intense pressure that that's exactly the kind of experience he went through and more he went through worse than what I was going through. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he knows exactly what it's like, and he offers compassion. He's gentle, and he says, draw near with confidence. Don't sort of shy away thinking, ah, I'm shameful. I've stuffed up again. How can I approach God about this again, <laugh>, he's saying, draw me. I know what it's like and I'm gonna help you. Mm-hmm. And that's just been hugely helpful for me. That's something I'm still trying to apply because it's not my default image of God. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:28:33 So when he approaches us like that, the way to coming to him is saying, I need you. Yeah. I am broken. I don't have it together. Yeah. My life is a mess in lots of ways. Yeah. But the irony is the person who, who holds to whatever their image is that they want to be. Mm-hmm. And and pretends that they're together, <laugh>. Yes. They actually miss out on that, that comfort of coming to Jesus, of experiencing his empathy, his compassion, his mercy applied personally. Yeah. To our particular struggle. Yeah. Yeah. Our particular failure, our particular damage that we've caused to him and to others, kind of rob ourselves of that opportunity. But when we come owning our need and needy for him, we actually have that tremendous encouragement. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:29:21 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:29:22 So as we move towards wrapping this up, I just wanna flag a couple of things we'll be doing in future episodes and then do a reminder of what the, the two questions were that I gave you. So firstly, the next episode, we'd like to look at how you share your hearts with one another. You share what's important to you and connect at that level in marriage. I guess one part is sharing, and the response then is tracking is one of my counseling lectures called, which is listening and giving away to what's most important in what the other person is seeing and following where they want to go. So we're hoping to look at that. And then another episode, we'd like to give the opportunity for you to ask questions and then spend some time actually responding to your specific questions. So maybe you might want to be keeping a note of any particular things that have come coming up for you from your own experience, from your marriage, things that still remain unclear, and maybe make a note of them and send them into us in the future.
Speaker 1 00:30:22 Already we've had some friends suggest to us that it'd be good to speak about these kind of dynamics that we've been talking about. When you've got one partner in a marriage who's keen and seeking God and wanting to put these things into practice, but the other partner is not, that's just not where they happen to be. How do you work things out when the relationship isn't reciprocal? Haley and I are blessed to have a relationship where things are reciprocal and we're on the same page and we have the same platform, the same framework of which we're approaching our relationship. But what about when that's different? We're not yet ready to answer that because that's not our personal situation, but we'd like to do some thinking about it and address it in a future episode. And these friends have also suggested maybe we could think about applying the same things we been thinking about with marriage to our parenting.
Speaker 1 00:31:17 'cause often when you are caring for children, things aren't reciprocated in the same way. So maybe that help might help us to think through what that's like. Two questions that I ask with these. Firstly, what's your current pattern of handling the ways that you wrong your spouse? What's your current pattern of handling the ways that you wrong your spouse? The second part of that, I was just pushing you really to think about however you are handling that right now, how might that reflect your relationship with God and what happens there? Second question was, what would it look like for you to practice a biblical habit of confession and forgiveness? What would it look like for you to practice a biblical habit of confession and forgiveness? And I just encourage you to think about one scene of your life, one particular real wrong that's occurred in your marriage and how you might work through that again if you had the opportunity to apply what you know about confession and forgiveness. Thanks for joining us. Again. Just to reiterate, if you'd like to consider meeting with me in a pastoral counseling capacity, either face-to-face, via Zoom, or over the phone, I'm available. You can email me
[email protected] au. You can look up at our church website and book an appointment with me online in of those three formats. Phone, zoom in person, and thanks again for joining us.
