Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hello and welcome to the Strengthening Your Marriage podcast with Jeremy and Hailey. This is episode eight, and we've titled Episode eight when Your Marriage Isn't Thriving. And similar to what we did last time, this topic's a fairly big one. And so we're breaking this topic up over two podcasts, so episode eight and episode nine. Now, before we get into that topic as we have been doing, we'll give you a quick recap of where we've been. Uh, last week we looked at connecting personally, and you might remember I got a bit carried away at the start of part one because I guess I've just been really excited. It's, it's really impacted me, this idea of God being personal, the fact that he shares his heart with us and what a tremendous privilege that is, and that he has this deep personal interest in us and wants us to speak back to him.
Speaker 1 00:01:08 Uh, it's changed a lot of the way that I live, and it just makes for such rich relating in marriage when we share our heart with our spouse, share what's important to us. And when that's met by the other, with a careful tracking of what we're saying, a deep interest in what we're saying and asking of questions, a drawing us out, it makes for such a rich relationship. So that's where we've been. Is there anything else you'd say about that, Hailey, in summary of last week? That's a good summary. Yeah. Okay. So this week we are looking at when your marriage isn't thriving, and I'd flagged that we would be looking at this idea of a marriage where things feel a bit one directional, where one spouse is eagerly pursuing the other and desiring perhaps a rich connection in the marriage relationship. But the other spouse isn't quite there, they're not on the same page.
Speaker 1 00:02:12 And so I mentioned that we hadn't done a lot of thinking about that since we recorded last week. Uh, I've listened to a number of podcasts. We listened to one together, and one of them was on the C C F website. So I'm gonna give you that link a bit later at the end of part two of this two part podcast, so you can explore that later if you'd like. And what was interesting was that each of the three people involved in that conversation in the podcast knew what it was like to be in their own marriage and to have seasons of not thriving, but then also being involved in helping others. All three of them had had some level of experience in marriage counseling. And there are, I guess, opening up this door of this experience of what it's like to be in a marriage where you are not on the same page.
Speaker 1 00:03:08 And so they use this term failure to thrive. And we get that term from, it's often used in talking about babies with attachment and, uh, this really sad reality where if a a child's not given love and affection and shown interest, uh, their development and even their will to live can just, can just plummet. And so that child is talked about as failing to thrive. And I guess this idea of a failure to thrive marriage, it's perhaps not so much got in view the extremes of being in a situation where there's domestic violence or abuse or that kind of thing happening or, or divorce. This is this more the situation where one spouse is, is interested in moving forward in developing a closer friendship, but the other spouse isn't quite there. And it could be that there's a difference in worldviews. Perhaps one partner is a Christian and the other is not. And so there's, uh, maybe a lack of being on the same page there, or it could be that they're both Christians or, but just, just not really functioning on the same wavelength. Is Haley, how, how would you describe it?
Speaker 2 00:04:22 Yeah, so I guess what we've been talking about over the last few weeks, in terms of the difference it makes knowing God and how that changes the way you relate and that you're wanting to model off God how to, to love and pursue the other person. I guess you're looking at relationships where one person is trying to do that Yes. And the other person is not so interested in investing and growing the relationship in that way. Yeah. Even though they are committed to the relationship. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:04:54 Hmm. And so I guess as we open up this topic, we're hoping that things we share might be helpful, but at the same time, a bit of a disclaimer we're, we're not bit experts. And it's not like this is the current reality we experience, or that I have a whole lot of caseload wisdom in helping people who've been in this situation. Uh, but I guess to kind of open it up a little bit, I guess all of us who are married know at some level, perhaps a season where our marriage has not been thriving. And so Haley and I are gonna reflect a bit on that in the course of this episode because the kind of content we've been thinking about really does apply to us in a, in a season of our marriage, a window that we've talked about before, perhaps particularly the first two to three years of married life, but extended out probably to the first five years of us kind of missing each other and not being on the same wavelength that kind of season.
Speaker 1 00:05:55 So we're gonna be reflecting a bit on, on that. And I guess the other thing to keep in mind is perhaps you are in a situation where you would describe your marriage as as not thriving right now. And, and maybe this is immediately relevant to you, but maybe you're not, maybe you feel like you're in a, a sweet place. Uh, you've hit a sweet spot in your marriage and things are working well. I guess I encourage you as well that we all have relationships where there's some level of dysfunction that might be in your wider family as you think about patterns of relating there that are less than what you would desire or particular friendships or, and maybe relationships with neighbors or people in the workplace, perhaps you feel like you're putting a lot into the relationship and there's not a lot given in return.
Speaker 1 00:06:45 It's a bit one way. And I think you can apply the very things that we're talking about to that situation. And even as Haley's parents had suggested to us as they encourage us to do some thinking around this topic, uh, they're saying that parallels in parenting that often it can feel like as a parent, you are giving out a lot to your children. And often that can be met with defiance, with disinterest in gratitude. Uh, the nature of a father child relationship isn't always reciprocal in two way. Uh, so we hope that this will be helpful. And Hailey, perhaps you'd be happy to open us up a little bit in talking about that season in, in our marriage where we would say we were not thriving.
Speaker 2 00:07:28 Yeah. So I guess in that period, early period, like you were talking about before coming to college and then, um, for part of the time at college, I guess to some degree I felt like I was pursuing intimacy and a close connection and feeling like you were, um, a little preoccupied with other things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. But having said that, I think I didn't do that well. And I think my pursuit of that was more not so much the kind of love that we're talking about we've been talking about in this podcast, but, um, but more really wanting our marriage to be good because I think I was placing my worth. My worth was kind of hanging on that, and so it was too important to me. So there's still that self-interest there, and I think I can relate to some things about feeling like things are a bit one way, but at the same time Yeah. It wasn't me pursuing you selflessly <laugh>. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. There's still that sort of interest there.
Speaker 1 00:08:37 Yeah. I was thinking for some people who might be listening mm-hmm. It might be an odd idea, a foreign idea perhaps, that you can want a good thing, but want it too much. So one thing that I'm reminded of is that I think the Bible's very nuanced and it's, it just gives us so much wisdom mm-hmm. <affirmative> for living. And one of the things that it kind of picks up is this idea that we can have evil desires, but that doesn't always mean that we desire something that is inherently evil. Yeah. But the evil in our desires can actually be that we desire something good, but we want it too much mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that it has this unhelpful, skewing, distorting impact on the way we live. And particularly when something becomes so big that it replaces a God in our life and desire for him for knowing him. Mm. Uh, so just thinking of that, you know?
Speaker 2 00:09:37 Yeah. Yeah. Seeing
Speaker 1 00:09:38 That, yeah. That's kind of how you felt about your desire for closeness or what you wanted
Speaker 2 00:09:45 Yeah. To be. So yeah, I think looking back, that's, that was the Yeah, that was what was driving it. <laugh>, but Yeah. But I was wanting like good communication and connection and involvement with you and Yeah. I was feeling like, yeah, perhaps you were not interested in the same kind of relating that I was after <laugh>. Hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:10:12 Yeah. One of the interesting things in the podcast that I mentioned before is Aaron Serone talks about two commitments in marriage. So there's kind of, at one level, there's the underlying foundational commitment, and that is this exclusive commitment to your spouse that you're saying, I wanna pursue friendship with you above all other human friendships. Mm.
Speaker 1 00:10:39 And yeah, I guess there's this lifelong commitment to the other person. So that's this one kind of foundational commitment which marriage involves. But then you're saying there's also this other secondary kind of commitment that is not just, I'm married to you and not to anyone else, but it's, I want to know you. I'm going to pursue you, I'm going to want closeness. Yeah. And so he's saying that lots of marriages have the first commitment mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and some people are not looking to divorce, or they've still got the reality of their marriage on the table. They're not, they're not thinking of an alternative, but they don't have that second commitment of really wanting to know the other person and, and maybe not. They're not working hard on actively developing the relationship and wanting it to grow. And I guess that probably describes fairly well, I think, where I was at in that season.
Speaker 1 00:11:43 So there was that foundational commitment. And, um, we're talking last night how you were kind of pursuing that with me, and you had involved your parents a little bit in conversation because we were struggling and you felt like we needed help. And I was just talking about how they, I guess it felt like they had one perception of where we're at and that things were very dire from things that you had said. Uh, but it was kind of reassuring when I caught up with your dad just one-on-one and, and talked him through, we're facing from my perspective. And he was really quite encouraged that there was, that solid foundational commitment was still there that hadn't moved. I wasn't thinking of packing it in <laugh>. Um, and maybe he was hearing through things that you were saying that may, maybe that was in question. But I guess as we explored that a bit more last night, what was going on for me, I think I did experience disappointment, kind of disappointment.
Speaker 1 00:12:46 We talked about in earlier episodes where maybe I had my own dream of marriage and that wasn't being realized. And I knew at some level that we weren't connecting. Well, and maybe I was interpreting your things you had raised with me about our relationship, about maybe the fact that I didn't seem interested or we weren't having the kind of conversations he wanted. I perhaps took that as criticism and it pushed me kind of further away. But I had this underlying disappointment, but I think I had suppressed it. And so I was living for other things, but I, I couldn't actually put my finger on some of the pain, I guess, as to why our marriage wasn't what I'd wanted or in, in what way. But I was kind of then disengaged and looking elsewhere, not looking to another woman or anything like that, but trying to find my meaning, my purpose in other pursuits. And I'd kind of some level emotionally shut down. I mean, that led to a season of depression and feeling emotionally numb. Won't going into all of that now, but that was, that was part of the dynamic, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 00:14:02 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:05 So, Hailey, one of the other things we mentioned when we were chatting about this earlier was blindness, the fact that yeah. One's partner can be blind to the issues. Mm. And you wanna unpack that a bit? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:19 Yeah. So, um, so I guess like for me being able to see, uh, it's in lots of ways I could see some of the issues. I was also blind to my own things as well, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but I could see some things, um, that you couldn't see mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I guess the temptation then was to try and force you to see what I was thinking would be good for our relationship and wanting to Yeah. Make things happen. And I guess that's the temptation when you are wanting things to work well and you are wanting good things for your relationship or wanting it too much. Um, the temptation is to try and force it to happen. But the reality is that, um, like we was saying before with a lot of things in our marriage, we actually, we just needed sight mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that wasn't something that we could produce ourselves.
Speaker 2 00:15:16 That was something that God gave us over time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and until we could see we couldn't do anything about it, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, I mean, I guess part of the issue with how I handled that season was that I was then not loving you well because, um, I wasn't kind of trying to gently help you and prompt sight and pray for sight, um, in a way that was sensitive and caring to you and allowing you to go at your own pace mm-hmm. <affirmative> with your interests at heart. Yeah. It was, I wanted the relationship to be here. Yeah. And so I was trying to Yeah. Make it happen. Yeah. Um, when that wasn't actually in my control. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:16:08 Yeah. And even, even perhaps wanting good things that God intends for the marriage relationship. Yeah. But, but at least for this season, he was withholding Yeah. Because of where I was at and was going on in my heart. Yeah. He, he was actually directing all of those circumstances. Yeah. And he wasn't necessarily calling you to try and force his hand Yeah. To bring about Yeah, yeah. The realities as you wanted them to be. Yeah. Or as e even what you thought he, he wanted <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:16:35 Yeah. So that's it. 'cause I felt that it was a biblical view of marriage, and so I felt justified in trying to make it happen, but the reality is, yeah. That, that's out of my control that God called me to, I guess it gave me the responsibility for myself and for my actions and called me to love. The desire for the relationship to be in a good place is a good desire, but it's not a good goal. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. The goal is to love and then Yeah. It's up to him what he does with that.
Speaker 1 00:17:11 Yeah. And I guess really that gets to hope. Like, what is your source of hope? If you find yourself in a marriage where you feel like you're not thriving or it's not reciprocal, it's going in one direction, you're on different wavelengths. A really critical question is what are you placing your hope in? Are, are you placing your hope in what you would like for your marriage being realized, even when that is even shaped by good and godly concerns? Or actually, are you placing your hope in who God is to you in his character, in his promises, particularly to you, or you find yourself in this season of marriage not being what you'd like, or Yeah. Your partner, your spouse, not reciprocating your trying your best to pursue them, but they're not responding with the same interests and engagement mm-hmm. That you are showing to them or you would desire from them. Mm-hmm. Uh, Hailey, you mentioned a bit, we chatting about God's love and nature of mm-hmm. God's love at this point, that you think that's really key.
Speaker 2 00:18:28 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the Bible talks about God loving us while we we're not only disengaged with him, but actually enemies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:18:40 Hostile.
Speaker 2 00:18:41 Hostile, yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So the nature of his love towards us is definitely that one way love. And I wonder if I still feel like I need that to sink in more. Um, I wonder if that sinking in more would help me in relationships that are, that do feel one way or where there is enmity or hostility or hurt coming from them. But the fact that God has loved me that way gives, gives humility, I guess, and a desire to imitate him rather than feeling offended and entitled, I guess. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:19:24 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is really, I, I think a huge thing is knowing how God relates to us. And if you are that you see yourself as the pursuer in the marriage, pursuing your spouse, knowing that you first have been pursued by God mm-hmm. <affirmative> who took the first move Yeah. Toward you and wanting you to know him in doing something radical, drastic to rescue you from yourself, centered focus, um, wanting to be the center of the universe to, to actually to see him, to appreciate him. Mm-hmm. Uh, to be, to be welcomed in and, and made part of the family mm-hmm. To be made a child. One the guys I work with that just loves this idea of adoption mm-hmm. That God makes us permanent members of his family, takes us from that state, as you said, of being an enemies and, and hostile mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:20:25 To actually being children who inherit what belongs to him, what is rightly his. Mm-hmm. It's this, this wonderful privilege. Mm. And I guess as we get to know God, the pattern is that we start to love like he loves. We learn how to relate because of how he relates to us. Mm. And we, we then mirror that forward, we reflect it to those in our lives. So I thought at this point, it might be worth revisiting the quote from Paul Tripp on love that we had called restorative love. We covered in that episode. So he said, says this cruciform love is willing self-sacrifice for the good of another that does not require reciprocation, or that the person being loved is deserving. So that really captures the nature of God's love for us. This cruciform love, this self-sacrificial, willing love that moves toward us regardless of anything good that we have done, regardless of being deserving.
Speaker 1 00:21:37 And then he, he calls us then to relate to other people this way. And that includes the person who finds themselves in a, in a marriage that's not thriving, being married to someone who's disengaged or with whom. There's a lot of misunderstanding. You just don't seem to connect at the level that, that you want to connect <laugh>, uh, rather than this self paradigm with self focus of looking at what's not being returned to you, your expectations of return mm-hmm. <affirmative> and what you're getting back from the relationship, uh, he calls you to continue to respond in this way. That is putting that spouse, putting their interests ahead of your own, seeking their good, uh, even at difficulty when it's inconvenient, when it's costly. And so in one of the marriage podcasts I listened to, uh, someone tells a story of, uh, a woman in her sixties who is still working full time with her husband, and in this case she's a Christian, she's become a Christian, and her husband is not.
Speaker 1 00:22:41 And so they think very differently, have different priorities. He's quite hostile to Christian things, and she gets home at this stage of life just absolutely exhausted and wants to sit down, put her legs up, beat up, uh, and one in front of just watching some news on the tv. And she's not a natural cook. The last thing she would naturally feel like doing is, is cooking, but he, he loves his food. And so she's growing in her ability to cook, to actually serve him and preference him, even though the marriage isn't all that she would desire. Uh, she's still thinking about what's good for him and, and putting that into practice. Now, I guess at this point, it might be helpful to ask a couple of personal application questions for you. And the first one is, when things are hard in your marriage, think, think of a time when things have been hard.
Speaker 1 00:23:38 What is your hope in that moment? What is it that you're focused on getting? What is it that your heart is fixed on? What is it that you really want to come through for you in that moment? And then the second question is, what would it look like for you to hope in God in that very moment when your marriage is hard for you to be looking to him and seeking to be his representative to your spouse, to love the way that he loves? It'd be great if you could nut out some practical ideas of, of what that would actually look like for you. This is a good spot to break this episode. This is the end of when your marriage isn't thriving. Part one. Stay tuned for part two where Haley and I will share that season of our life really revisiting that season of our life we've described, and how we would apply the things we know now, the things we've shared so far in this episode to that season when we weren't thriving, the practical steps that we would, uh, put into place to do things differently. Thanks for joining us so far.
