Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:11 Hello and welcome to the Strengthening Your Marriage podcast with Jeremy and Hailey. This is episode six, and it's titled, connecting Personally. Just a Flag Upfront. This episode came out substantially longer than we'd anticipated. You'll hear me get a bit passionate and animated at points, so we split it into two. We figure ourselves that sometimes it's easier to listen to things within smaller timeframes. So we've broken this up for your benefit, and if you've got more time, you might just like to play the two back to back and have them together as a package, but otherwise, we'll hope they'll work okay. Split into and be a bit easier to listen to in smaller chunks. As has been a habit, we'll do a quick recap of episode five, and it was on habits of confession and forgiveness. That's what we spoke about, how critical it is to take responsibility for the wrong that we do at times to our spouse.
Speaker 1 00:01:13 And Paul Trip had spoken about patterns of, of confession and forgiveness as being this kind of fertile soil for a marriage to grow and flourish that allows for real unity to develop when, when that's a pattern, when that's something that happens in an ongoing way. We, we use the term habits because we're wanting to convey that it's something that gets built into your relationship and it's something that you learn to do again and again as things come up. Paul Trip's book uses the term lifestyle, and I like that because it captures that repeated sense that this is something that we do, a way of life that we have that that actually makes for a rich foundation for our marriages. And there's quite a lot of ideas that we threw around in our car trip up to Newcastle around that. And it was hard to work out what to include and what just to let go, because there's a lot that's been written on particularly forgiveness and different understandings of forgiveness in the Christian world.
Speaker 1 00:02:19 And we really just focused on, I guess, stuff that we had worked through firsthand or that was particularly relevant thinking that we had done. There are a few things that we didn't, uh, expressed there. I wanted to clarify why one partner saying sorry to the other, and the other responding by saying, it's okay why that doesn't cut it from a biblical perspective. So I think we can say, sorry, we can be apologetic. We can have something of a sense of the impact of our actions on our spouse. But there's something I think that's quite deep about saying, will you forgive me? It's, it's taking that to the next level of actually taking responsibility and earning what we've done. So I think that's important. Would you say Hailey?
Speaker 2 00:03:08 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:10 And the idea of it's okay is, I guess relating it back to something that Haley said from the Paul Trip livestream series was that by forgiving someone we're not just excusing, I guess, the wrong that they have done. Yeah. What did Paul say again? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:29 Yeah. So you said that love doesn't call wrong, right? Yes.
Speaker 1 00:03:33 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:03:34 So it's not just sort of glossing things over and going, oh, it's okay. I'm just gonna forget it because I want to be forgiving. Yeah. Or I won't raise that because I want to be forgiving. Yes. But if something is wrong, oh, God never calls us to pretend it's not. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:03:50 And so by saying it's okay is kind of downplay what's happened.
Speaker 2 00:03:56 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's it's not actually dealing with the issues necessarily. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:04 And I guess in terms of talking about forgiveness, forgiveness is choosing not to hold on to the anger you have against someone because of what they have done to you. It's recognizing that something hurtful or unjust has happened and the the other person has done that. And as a result, you are rightly angry about what they have done. But forgiveness is choosing not to hold onto that anger against the other person once they've taken responsibility and they've seen the damage it's caused, and they've asked you to forgive them. And that's an ongoing process. And one of the things that a good friend of ours has done a lot of thinking about forgiveness and had firsthand experience of real wrongs, really hurtful things happening from people close to them. And part of that journey has been going to God with the anger, uh, felt about particular people, particular actions, particular situations, and telling God about how unfair it's, it's felt telling God about the desire to be vindicated, to be put right, to be seen, to be in the right when hurtful things have been said, things that are untrue.
Speaker 1 00:05:22 And even when forgiveness has been sought, it's not just a one and done thing of granting forgiveness. We might need to keep going to God and talking to him about the ongoing anger or the way that the consequences of those person's actions, even though they've owned them now, are still impinging on us. It's still reaping a destructive impact on us. And I guess it's not a light thing to forgive. Uh, it's, it's, it's a pretty huge thing. Now, this week we're talking about connecting personally, and it's very hard for me to think about the content that we're gonna talk about today without thinking about Ed Welsh. Ed Welsh taught a couple of my subjects that I've done through c C F helping relationships and human personality. And I just feel like he's a really dear friend. I've only seen him in person twice and had one personal conversation with him face to face.
Speaker 1 00:06:19 But he shared so much of himself and so much of what he's shared flows out of knowing God and knowing what God says really well and its connection to life. And he's been a means that God has used to really grow and change me and profoundly shape my understanding of, of people and how we relate together. So I'm deeply grateful for him, and particularly his helping relationships. Class has this emphasis on what it means to be personal. He says that the goal of our interactions together is to have the other person on our heart so that we want to pray for them. That applies to all relationships. So talking about a church context, people gather together, the basic building blocks of caring for someone else are being impacted by them and what they're facing, such that you, you go away, they weigh on you, and you naturally desire what's good for them.
Speaker 1 00:07:16 And that just overflows into speaking to God on their behalf, wanting God to act for their good in light of what you found out about their situation and what they're facing. So that kind of really sums up really helpfully. I think this idea of being personal and, and watch classy goes into unpacking that in a lot more detail, but it really flows from the fact that God is personal. That's at the heart of everything. And we see in a passage like John Chapter 15, Jesus says to his disciples, this is not long before that Jesus is about to be crucified. There's this extended discourse the night before with his disciples preparing them for what's ahead. And he says, I no longer call you servants for a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I call you friends, or everything that I, uh, knew from the Father I've made known to you.
Speaker 1 00:08:15 This idea that, that God is a personal friend who discloses himself, who shares himself, who shares his heart with us, that we might know him, and he invites us actually to share our heart back with him in this relationship where there's, it's two directional and, and we impact one another. Uh, of course, I guess we've, God, it's not like we're at the same level that God is God and we are not, we are his creatures that he has made. But nonetheless, there's this two-way dynamic where he is impacted by us and where to be impacted by him. One of the rich images that Ed unpacks is sitting down in someone's home and enjoying their hospitality, and he's just that, you know, that's really what God does with us. It's like he invites us to a meal, gets us to sit down at the table, and he leans across, I guess we, we see this lived out in, in Jesus, in the way that Jesus related to people.
Speaker 1 00:09:15 It's like he invites us to tell him about ourself. He says it's like, you know, turning up at someone's house who you know really, really well. You know, they don't want you standing out, knocking on the doorstep, unsure of whether you want them to walk in and it's like an open door policy. Perhaps they've even given you a key. They want you to come in and feel right at home. It's that kind of thing. Being, being personal. And it's applying that then to a marriage is that it's, it's natural that we share our hearts with our spouse. And as the listening spouse, our goal is really to be impacted by what the other's saying to us so that we feel what they feel we want to follow and go where they go. And that kind of brings up the other side of one part, I guess, of connecting personally is sharing on the one hand, and the other part is, is listening and it's following what's important to the person. You're sharing it, and you haven't done the same study that I've done, but you've picked up on quite a bit of it. So the other side, one of the ways of describing it is, is tracking. Do you wanna unpack a bit what your understanding of that is and why that's helpful?
Speaker 2 00:10:28 Yeah, so I guess what you were saying about, um, following what's important to someone is really the heart of it. Mm. So you're listening out for what is it that this person has their mind on and values? And guess what they're thinking about what they're feeling or points you to, to what's important to them, and that's what you're wanting to find out more about. So listening out for that and then probing a little bit, uh, asking questions to see where that goes. Um, yeah. And trying to get to the bottom of what it is that is bothering them or that they're excited about or whatever it is. Hmm.
Speaker 1 00:11:09 And you were saying that that's kind of taking it a step further from active listening and lots of counseling. We hear that in terms of improving our communication, being an active listener. But this is something a bit bit more than that again, would you say?
Speaker 2 00:11:23 Yeah. Well, I guess like the thing you said about being impacted by someone, and we talked as well about enjoying one another, that it's, it's not a mechanical thing or a dutiful thing, but it's something that perhaps flows a bit more naturally when you're Yeah, yeah. Engaged with the person. And it's a bit hard to put your finger on. But yeah.
Speaker 1 00:11:47 So you can have like a paid professional counselor maybe you're sitting across the lounge from, and they could be nodding at all the right points and either giving those soothing MMS or whatever in response to what you're saying, but like those outside signs that are not necessarily showing impact on them emotionally on their whole person, so that they, they could be showing that, or what could be going on inside is just what they've learnt and been trained to do, and they're giving all the right external responses. Yeah. But if they have a very cold, hard line boundary approach, I just see, yeah. I don't really take on board your stuff. I'm not saying they they should be, but, but I'm not kind of impacted by you. Yeah. There's a,
Speaker 2 00:12:35 It's a bit more two-way.
Speaker 1 00:12:36 Yeah. And I,
Speaker 2 00:12:38 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:12:39 What can just be a bit That's the mechanical Yeah, yeah. Thing, isn't it? It's, it's giving the right gestures and facial expressions and, but it might not have the same heart behind it. Yeah. It can be done mechanically or it can be done in a way that's really felt.
Speaker 2 00:12:53 Yeah. That's it. It has to do with the heart behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I guess part of that as well is to do with sharing yourself. Yeah. I guess I've tended to think that the loving thing to do is not to share so much of yourself, but to listen and preference whatever is important to the other person mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And draw them out and talk about things they want to talk about. Yeah. And not so much contribute my own thoughts and responses and what's going on for me as well into that. Yeah. I guess starting to realize that that's a really important thing for being rec reciprocal and yeah. It has to do with enjoying the other person, trusting the other person. And also I think there can be a subtle kind of pride in the other approach where you are wanting to care for the other person, but not allowing them to care for you back <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think Yeah. As people who are needy, I guess, to needing to allow the other person to help you as well. Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Speaker 1 00:14:04 Yeah. So there are quite a few ideas that we could pick up and unpack there. It's just going back to the tracking idea first. So again, that's a term that Ed Wesh has used in his class, and I guess it comes from that kind of hunter image of looking for the marks of a creature that you are chasing and you're, you're following intently. It's, it's that kind of thing. That's what you're doing in conversation, isn't it? Mm-hmm. It's you, you're actually actively pursuing the other person Yeah. By being interested and continuing to ask that next question Yeah. And listening for the things that they're feeling that are weighing on them, and
Speaker 2 00:14:43 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:44 And going after that <laugh> Yeah, yeah. Is kind of the idea. And one of the interesting examples that Ed Welsh used that just stuck with me was from a scene of a television show where he was illustrating what he's talking about, and he's saying that American context. So he's saying the young daughter is really upset and saying that she doesn't like boys to her mother, and she's just, you know, doesn't want anything to do with boys. And if you just picked up on the dialogue of what's being said between the mother and the daughter, you would think that the mother's response is actually out of line as that the mother responds with this comment, it's okay, sweetie. Someone will ask you to the prompt. So at face value, there's this mismatch of words spoken and what's said, but, but actually what's going on there is the mother is tracking her daughter. She actually knows what the real issue is. She knows the daughter well enough and all these external things that a daughter's saying, <laugh>, uh, just expressions of, she's worried someone's not gonna ask her <laugh>, and she's looking for some kind of reassurance. And the mother kind of bypasses all that other words and cuts to the heart of what's going on for the daughter. So sometimes tracking looks like that. It's, it's actually,
Speaker 2 00:16:06 It's listening for the heart beneath the words.
Speaker 1 00:16:08 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess ideally in a marriage, we are wanting both husband and wife to be growing in sharing their hearts with one another, but also this skill of, of tracking. But it's, it's not just a skill, is it? It's a, it's a posture. It's a, it's a, I want to know you posture and attitude that's being shown to the other person. And I guess it shows itself in, in listening, but, but, but really wanting to know the other person. Uh, you are talking a bit about how this fleshes out a bit more. We've talked about restorative love, but you've talked about before we started recording and having conversation, you're saying this is actually an important piece of the puzzle for understanding that love. Did, do you wanna talk about that? Yeah. A bit more.
Speaker 2 00:17:01 Yeah. Yeah. So I guess like your desire is to help one another. And in order to do that, you need to know what's going on in the other person's heart. And part of that is like seeing how they respond in situations. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just living together. Those things come up. But a big part of it as well is knowing the other person well enough to know their typical struggles, to know their strengths, particular strengths and giftings, and to know how they tend to think and respond in particular situations. 'cause that then gives you a window that enables you to ask good questions that are helpful and Yeah. To prompt them to think through things or Yeah. To make suggestions or ask more questions that lead to that kind of help, um, that we were talking about, um, change that brings about flourishing.
Speaker 1 00:18:04 So it's just helpful in knowing the other person that's kind of critical to knowing the other person and then being able to respond helpfully Yeah. In a whole range of situations. Yeah. That come up.
Speaker 2 00:18:16 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:18:18 I was wondering as well, if there's a sense in which it relates to that kind of well-known saying that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:18:31 That's true as well. Yeah. It kind of wins you the right as well to Yeah. Speaking to each other's lives. Um,
Speaker 1 00:18:38 Yeah. It's when someone's lived with you through a whole range of experiences, hardship, and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and blessings and joys, there's just this solid foundation that's that's there of, of trust. And there's been a continued pattern of pursuing the other through listening to what's shared and, and genuine interest in what's shared. Then you're much more receptive then to being helped by that person when you know that you need help. Yeah. When you're not seeing things clearly, rather than getting defensive and having your walls up. Yeah. Uh, you're, you're actually, they're your ally <laugh>. Yeah. And you know that they're gonna be speaking for you and for your good, even if sometimes they might say things that you are not quite wanting to hear. If there's a characteristic pattern in your life that's being coming up again and your first response is, uh, you know, if it's for us, often it's perfectionism and one of us reminding the other of, yeah, perhaps you're expecting too much of yourself here, <laugh>, is that a realistic expectation to have? Uh, sometimes that can be a relief to hear that, but sometimes it can be, oh, not again. Like, yeah, it's the last thing you want to hear, but, but it is actually spoken <laugh>. Mm-hmm. Or you're good <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:19:59 Yeah. Yeah. And I guess the positive side of that as well, that it actually allows you to see God's work in, in the other person's life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that can be incredibly encouraging and allow you to encourage them, especially when they might not be able to see that themselves.
Speaker 1 00:20:17 Yeah. And I wanna pick up something else that you said before, Hailey. You talked about that humility that's required to seek others help. And I guess people who are in roles that involve a substantial caring load, whether that's counseling or a pastoral role, or maybe it's an age care or something where there's a lot of giving out. There can be this tendency to see yourself as only performing that role and keeping yourself very much safe and hidden, or even thinking that that might be for the best of the person <laugh>. Mm. But I think one thing you said before we were recording was that you were learning that you're actually willing for me to help you in situations and, and others at times and just to kind of invite them into the mess that Yeah. That you sometimes find yourself in.
Speaker 2 00:21:14 Yeah. Yeah. Because I guess like the idea of only sharing what's helpful for the other person when you're wanting to love the other person, there's some truth to that <laugh>. Mm-hmm. But I think there's more to it than that because I can think, like, if I'm in a really bad head space and I know that things aren't right with my thinking and I'm in a bit of a mess, I can think that's not gonna be helpful for you if I just dump all that on you. Um, so I'm just gonna keep it to myself and just bottle it up or try and work through it myself. But oftentimes it's actually really helpful for me and for our relationship, for me to share what I'm thinking. And you've often been able to then help me with my perspective or kind of help me tease out my thinking a bit more and not get sort of stuck in my own, um, cycle of mulling something over and not really moving forward. And yeah, that's, I guess part of having the humility to allow you to help me, which is also an important trait. So caring for your best interest is important. Humility is also important, and recognizing my own weakness and limitations. Hmm. And so I guess it's bringing both those things into Yeah. I guess the decision of what, what you share and <laugh> Yeah. How you share it.
Speaker 1 00:22:40 Yep. Okay. For those of you who are listening, I've got a couple of application questions for you to get you thinking. The first one is particularly along the lines of sharing, and I want you to a picture, a spectrum in your mind where one end is like being a completely closed book. You, you're private, you keep your innermost thoughts to yourself. You would find them very hard to share with your spouse, or you share very little of that with your spouse. And the other end of the spectrum is that you share everything. A completely open book. It's kind of nothing that would take your spouse by surprise if they were to find out. It's, it's all out there. Um, as you think about that, I, I want you to think, where do you think you are on the spectrum? How well do you share your heart if spouse?
Speaker 1 00:23:35 Now the second question is, how well do you listen to your spouse? I'm getting it at the tracking part here. How well do you listen to your spouse and follow what's important to them? Now, after you've had some time to think about those questions and, and respond personally, I'd also like you to actually invite your spouse to give their thoughts, both on how well you share where, where they think you are compared to what you've said, and then also how well do they feel you listen to them and follow what's important to them when you have a conversation. Well, as I said earlier, we're breaking this episode into two parts. That brings us to the end of connecting personally part one, but keep listening to the next part. If you'd like to hear Haley and I speak more personally about ways that we've grown in this area of connecting at a personal level, both in sharing our hearts and learning to track one another better and a few other thoughts we have on our wider culture and how that impacts on us.
