Speaker 1 00:00:12 Hello and welcome to the Strengthening Your Marriage podcast with Jeremy and Hailey. This is part two of Connecting Personally, episode seven. We're not gonna start with a recap this time as episode six and seven really belong together as a set, we've just broken them up to make the size more manageable. So we'll just jump straight into it. We're gonna start following on from the questions we asked, and we're gonna chat for a bit about our own experience in these areas in light of our story, our marriage, up to this point. Haley, you were saying with this topic, you think there has been a shift in us in terms of this sharing mm-hmm. Our heart. Do you wanna say something about that?
Speaker 2 00:01:01 I think it's probably a lot related to trust, which we've talked about before, that enables that kind of sharing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I think as the trust has grown, we've opened up more with each other. Yeah. I guess it's become a really rich part of our relationship mm-hmm. Um, at this stage. Mm-hmm. And I think it's particularly related to the commonality we have in that perspective of wanting to get to know God better mm-hmm. And wanting to, um, grow into the, that flourishing tree <laugh>, um, that listens to God and changes. And I think because we share that, we've connected a lot over that. Mm. Yeah. Did you have other thoughts?
Speaker 1 00:01:51 I think that's helpful. I mean, that is really the core of it. I guess this is a fairly common image that that's thrown around, but it's the idea of kind of like a triangle where we, God is the point at the top and a husband, a wife are the, the other two points, but they're both moving toward God and so as they do, they're getting closer. Yeah. But it's having, I think God at the center, um, I can't think of anything stronger to motivate or give your relationship direction. Yeah. And I guess that's where we started this podcast was that our conviction is actually that our greatest hope for our marriage is the fact that God is not finished with us. He's not content to leave us where we are, but he's absolutely committed to changing our character and to working on our character. And it's because of that, that there's hope for our Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:02:48 Marriage. Yeah. I guess just thinking of some advice that we were given in some pre-marriage counseling that we had that I think was helpful and it has maybe taken on, um, some form and shape in our marriage, has been often Christians, uh, encouraged to do their daily devotions together, to read part of the Bible together and to, to pray. And the pastor that we met with his take on that was actually, don't beat yourself up about that. Lots of couples find that really, really hard. And I think the worst thing you'd want is what he was saying is for that to be a mechanical tick box thing. And actually that's not necessarily a measure of godliness. Mm-hmm. Is if you are actually engaging with good things, uh, whether that's, you know, listening, reading, the best thing you can be doing is, is kind of what we're talking about.
Speaker 1 00:03:49 It is sharing your heart with each other, sharing what God is teaching you. It's having those conversations that are the critical part, not necessarily the form that's maybe held up Yeah. In Christian or church culture, <laugh> as the necessary thing to be doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I guess kind of related to that, and we've been doing a few different things, but as some friends of ours have done a marriage course through the Anglican Church, and one of its recommendations is connecting over a minimum of, of 20 minutes together every day and trying to have that, and we never really had that as a rule as such, but I think as good things started happening and change started happening in our relationship, it's just become very natural that that would be a minimum <laugh>. We, we don't have to structure it in <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:04:45 At the end of the day. We just want to hear what the other person's day has been and feeling, um, what our day's been and the things we're thinking about. And yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:55 It just kind of happens. It's become a, a rhythm of life. Uh, but I think if that's something that you're struggling with, if you struggle to fit in 20 minutes per day, I think that is a really helpful concrete suggestion to try and build that in as a structure and you need to start somewhere. And that's, that's a great starting point, I guess for us. We've read different things over different times and terms of engaging with the Bible, it's really looked quite different from season to season. At the moment, we are reading through a helpful companion that's a Bible reading with a couple of one Old Testament passage, one New Testament passage, and do that in the evening. And we're doing that together most days. Yeah. We do that Monday to Friday, often break that rhythm up on the weekend by reading helpful article from the general biblical counseling or, um, watching some good Christian teaching that we've touches on something that we're interested or be helpful, like the portrait marriage seminar or parenting stuff. And that's helpful. But yeah, I think is that there's time and opportunity to share, and the reality is because of God's commitment to us, he is doing good things through everything that's happening in life. And one of the most critical things is, is being able to share that open, vulnerable level. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:06:29 So, Haley, you were saying something, you, you made a link between sharing and our definition of love. We've talked a bit about a definition of love before. Do you wanna Yeah, yeah. Explain that a bit.
Speaker 2 00:06:39 Yeah. So I guess part of it, like in, for example, when I'm thinking about should I share my mess with you <laugh>, and I'm thinking, oh, you don't need that right now. Yeah. That, that would be annoying or difficult or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, that's actually showing a definition of love, which is, um, to love someone is to keep them comfortable. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:07:04 Make their
Speaker 2 00:07:04 Life easy. Make Yeah. Their life easy. Things like that, which we tend to naturally think Yeah. Um, to make them feel happy or emotionally good. But actually what we've been talking about in terms of the kind of love that God wants us to have one another is that we actually want the other person to be transformed. And part of that involves Yeah. Helping one another and being willing to step into those messy areas with one another. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:07:39 Would you say there's even a sense in which by sharing some of what you are facing, that you are finding difficult mm-hmm. Like by volunteering that to the other in marriage mm-hmm. That's actually moving toward them. It's it's inviting them in Yeah. To your space. That's it. And then that's how depth of relationship happens when you do that. But by choosing not to invite them in, you're
Speaker 2 00:08:05 Actually shutting them
Speaker 1 00:08:05 Out. You're closing the door. Yeah. Yeah. So you're also talking a bit about the role of, of prayer, both in marriage more generally, but particularly in relation to this idea of sharing our hearts.
Speaker 2 00:08:24 Yeah. The first thing that came to mind was this, we talked before about the fact that we needed site and the ongoing need for site that oftentimes we, um, we just can't see the issues. We can't see clearly. We don't know where to go or what to change or what the problem is, even mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that's a really key thing is that without God's help, we can't get anywhere with this stuff. We can work all we like. Mm-hmm. And so talking to God and asking him for help, um, is, is a really key part in all of this. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:09:05 So if you're listening and prayer is just like a religious word to you, I guess one way to think we're talking about is what we're talking about horizontally in relationship between husband and wife. Mm-hmm. It's the fact that God shares himself. He discloses himself, he tells us about himself in the Bible. We, we actually get to know him. We read what he says. Mm-hmm. And we, we track him. We, we, we get a sense of what's important to him. We feel what he feels, we value what he values, and then he invites us to speak back to him. And he's, he's also impacted by us. And prayer is this personal, deeply personal dynamic where we're, where we're speaking to God, where we're in relationship with him, much as we are with our spouse. And I guess for us, uh, well, I said before that we might not follow, you know, a particularly rigid formula for ways of reading the Bible and, and praying and, and sandwiching that together as if that's somehow that the pinnacle of what it means to be a Christian or to have a Christian marriage, nonetheless.
Speaker 1 00:10:13 A actually praying together has been tremendously helpful for our marriage. It's just not often looked like that structure. So we might tend to be fairly spontaneous. Uh, we've got some time together in the evening and, um, maybe there's just some things, weighty things we've talked about. And, uh, just, just speaking to God about that together can just be tremendously helpful. Uh, because we're, when we, when we're doing that, we're, we're actually wanting to align our purposes with his. We're recognizing that we, we can't work this out on our own. We're inviting him in and saying, we, we need his help have been sometimes, uh, I think of where we've had some tension in wider family, and it feels like we've reached a stalemate. Often we've been able to work through dilemmas conflicts fairly well, and there's been a clear answer or a clear resolution has emerged that we've both found compelling and has seemed be obvious.
Speaker 1 00:11:10 But there've been a couple of times where there's just been tricky, tricky situations with wider family dynamics. And it's felt like a stalemate where we're perhaps butting heads and we don't know what to do. And, you know, we, we actually have turned that into bringing that situation before God and saying, you know, this is how it feels. Would you give us some light here? Would you shed some light on what to do? And I, I think as well with this restorative concern for the other, when we, we know one of us is really struggling, or we're both really struggling, something that's just such a rich thing to be able to share together is inviting God into that and to, to share our hearts with him, <laugh> on where we're at and, and what's difficult and, and asking him to do what we can't do.
Speaker 2 00:12:05 Yeah. And I guess it's, it's helpful for gaining perspective as well. Mm-hmm. Um, because we can have conversations and lose, lose sight of the big picture and God's words, but then turning back to him to talk to him about it kind of brings you back to, um, to that kind of perspective.
Speaker 1 00:12:29 Yeah. One of the problems in life and the very nature of seeing of this self-focus mm-hmm. Is that if you think of it like the scene of a movie, is that as things are unfolding or as we interpret what's unfolding, what's happening to us, and the trouble we're facing, it's like God is actually in every scene, <laugh>, uh, but it's almost as if we we're just blind to him being there. We've taken him out of the frame and we're retelling ourselves what has just happened as if he was not there. And the helpful things that prayer does by, by praying together, where we're recognizing that he's actually very much in the frame <laugh> and we're relating to him in light of what he's said to us about himself, about who he's in light of his promises to us. And we're, we're asking him to, to be that to us in that, that moment to come through for us when, when we're not sure we can come through mm-hmm. When we're not sure what the solution is or what the way forward is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> now, in terms of tracking Haley and thinking of a season in our marriage, I've spoken of the time we've been at college, and you've actually mentioned to me before, uh, that even before that, when I was doing some ministry training back in Newcastle, I was very preoccupied mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:13:54 So I would just have my mind, uh, on, on one track, <laugh>, and I might be okay about telling you about my day, but as soon as you wanted to speak about your day, my mind was elsewhere. Just, just wasn't there present. Yeah. And engaged. So that's been a bit of a pattern, at least for seasons in our marriage. And I think that's probably been a result of my own heart issues, of my own focus being elsewhere and not on our marriage and not realizing how critical that is. Um, how would you speak about tracking?
Speaker 2 00:14:44 Yeah. Typically, the way we relate a lot tends to be that someone shares something with us and it, it triggers a thought that is related to us and our experience, and then we start talking about ourselves. Um, and that triggers a thought for them and back and forwards it goes. And it's kind of, we are getting to know each other and we are sharing and listening, but it's another thing, again, to actually want to get to the bottom of something and to hear, to hear someone share something and to think about what might be behind that or else might be going with that. Asking more questions, um, listening for both the emotion and the word, like the content and the emotion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think emotion's particularly important for the tracking, because that is, that's one of the major flags for what's important to someone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 1 00:15:42 Just to unpack that a little bit, one way of understanding anxiety is it's a reflection of what we love or what we love is under threat. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:15:56 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:57 So when we are feeling anxious, we might have someone close to us who's quite unwell. Yeah. And it's a very natural response to feel Yeah. Weight of anxiety or concern for their wellbeing because we love them. Yeah. But the same thing could be said about money, if that's what we love and treasure and if that comes under threat, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. So our emotions are an indicator of what we value of what's important to us.
Speaker 2 00:16:25 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:27 I guess I've grown a bit in this skill of tracking, 'cause I'm reflecting on that earlier experience. I mean, I think I'm still aware of times where I might've had a difficult day or things were quite unresolved from my day. Maybe it's an overhanging deadline, and I don't quite know how that's going to be resolved. And I, I don't like the fact that it is unfinished. I struggle to live with that. And so sometimes that can be playing out and maybe you've had a particularly rough day and I might be hearing things that you are saying, but I'm not fully there. I'm still a bit elsewhere, but, but on the whole, I'm probably getting better at, at tracking you, you say. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:18 Yeah. Yeah. Being present I guess is a key thing. Um, yeah. And you've definitely grown a lot in being present, um, in the moment. Yeah. Not having in mind elsewhere. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:17:35 Is there anything else you wanna say about us and what trackings look like, particularly for us?
Speaker 2 00:17:41 Yeah. So I guess I've had the privilege of some of your counseling skills. <laugh>. Um, yeah. But oftentimes there's like, if I've been struggling with a particular issue that to have you sit down and draw me out and ask probing questions and make gentle comments, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's actually been extremely helpful. And not just helpful, but it's really built our relationship Yeah. And built a lot of trust that kind of relating mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, yeah. So that's been a real blessing mm-hmm. <affirmative> in my recent time.
Speaker 1 00:18:24 I think back before I've done some of that more helpful study that I've done, and some of the comments were before we came to Sydney, where when I was out involved with someone for an extended period in, in terms of my ministry with the church, you often felt like maybe they had the best of my attention or I was particularly engaged with them, but I was not relating with you in the same way. Yeah. Like, you got a bit jealous perhaps, or envious of if only that was the dynamic in our marriage. But I think part of the fruit of what God has been doing in us is that, that that's flipped in the other way. Yeah. So that, that is more the default or becoming the, the normal pattern Yeah. For our marriage. And then other people are an extension <laugh> Yeah. Of that kind of dynamic.
Speaker 1 00:19:17 Yeah. Yeah. But this is our core foundational relationship, foundational thought of life. Yeah. That is most critical. And so it, it gets first Yeah. Priority, I think for season there was actually the wrong way around that I was pursuing my own glory, my own reputation, my own importance through ministry. And while some of this stuff has come intuitively to me, perhaps as a skill at understanding others and following them and, and listening, and I guess I'm a, a listener before I'm a talker, if you get to nice of, don't tend to talk for an extended time about ourselves, uh, we're quite happy to sit in silences or we wait for silences before we'll volunteer something <laugh>. Uh, so we don't tend to talk a lot, but even
Speaker 2 00:20:13 Though we're talking a lot now, <laugh> a lot now,
Speaker 1 00:20:15 Sorry about that. Yeah. So I think for a season there just my priorities were, were quite skewed, but I just think this idea of being personal is just such a rich idea and knowing that that's who God is and what he's like, and then that shapes all of our relationships Mm. Of being impacted by others. There's a quote by Benjamin Warfield and a guy who lived back around 1900, I think. And he speaks of this path of following Jesus, of, of knowing him, and the fact that we're so involved with those around us, that we don't just live one life but a thousand lives because we actually feel the joy and the pain of those around us. We're so involved with them that it's almost as if we live multiple lives. We've lived through their lens. Obviously there's that, there's a costliness to that. There's a, there's a self forgetfulness, a self-sacrificing that goes with that.
Speaker 1 00:21:25 But at the same time, part of me thinks that's just so rich. I, I wouldn't wanna live it any other way than, than than having people on your heart. Like I feel like God's widest to live that way. And, and certainly in marriage it feels like the richest Yeah. Paradigm, the richest way to relate to one another. Yeah. I guess this one illustration of when you're not tracking is having a conversation with someone that you kind of test the water of whether they're gonna be trustworthy with responding helpfully to something that you wanna say, and you want to get off your chest and you take a small step and you see how they respond. But sometimes I've had people actually jump in and assume they know where I'm going, and sometimes maybe they've been on track or maybe they've actually been a bit off track, but because they've jumped in and not given me more space to kind of process or tease out what I'm thinking, I've, I've actually felt they've missed me.
Speaker 1 00:22:36 And I go away from the interaction and I've still got those things on my chest and I go away feeling, oh, I've been a bit misunderstood here. <laugh>. I guess that's what it feels like when someone hasn't tracked you well, they haven't given you enough space to actually hear what's important. What's important has still been stuck on your side and you've not had the opportunity to share it. And, and sometimes I think that's a danger. It's actually jumping in too quickly, or perhaps it's wanting to save time or whatever it is, but by kind of finishing someone else's thoughts for them can actually assume, you know, what they were gonna say or where they wanted to go, but shut down the opportunity for that kind of personal connection. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:24 And the reality is you can't shortcut relationships that they do actually just require time. Yeah. And it does take time to draw someone out and to ask clarifying questions and to actually understand, especially when you're quite different. Yes. Um, it does just take time and there's no way around that. Yeah. Um, but it does yield really rich benefit if you do put in the time.
Speaker 1 00:23:47 Yeah. It's interesting. There are a couple of other things that come to mind when talking about this. One of them is Eugene Peterson talks about the value of small talk. And in a culture where we are always rushing, he, he actually wants us to slow down and appreciate what he calls the texture of someone else's life. And I think that's really helpful. Mm. So Hailey, you and I both tend to want to go deep with people. Yeah. And so that's, that's where we naturally tend to go, want to go. And sometimes it can be frustrating if a, a conversation that that feels shallow or a relationship where conversation only happens at that, that level we can feel a bit restless, but there's this sense in which a lot of our lives is lived in very ordinary moments and being able to appreciate Yeah. The ordinary in, in this kind of small talk is, is actually a really important step to building real relationship.
Speaker 2 00:24:46 Yeah. And it's a real richness actually. If you learn to taking interest in the differences and the things that other people are interested in that we're not naturally interested in, you can really broaden your horizons and Yeah. Widen your world. And there's actually, it's not necessarily a natural thing to do, but like, for example, your interest in metal music, <laugh>. Yeah. Um, it's not something that I share, but I've taken an interest and I've learned a lot about that. Um, that culture
Speaker 1 00:25:17 Or the world of fonts, typography.
Speaker 2 00:25:19 Yeah, that's right. <laugh>. Yeah. Um, but yeah, there is, yeah, a joy in expanding your horizons and taking an interest in something that's interesting to someone else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 1 00:25:33 I think the other thing I want to say is your parents, Haley, have talked about the difference between quality time and quantity time. Mm-hmm. And I think, I think the reality is that we're, we're coming to the conclusion that both are important, but we, we live in this culture where everything has a time value put on it. Mm-hmm. And so I think to, to easily, we settle for what we would regard as a quality interaction with someone, and then we'll move on to the next, but we pack our lives and our schedules full. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but actually the kind of relating sometimes that got actually desires for us and calls for us is not just quality time, but it's, it's built on quantity. And so having lots of time together with, with people, especially with our spouse, but but with people more broadly as well is, is actually really necessary. All of that stuff is, is built up gradually over time.
Speaker 2 00:26:35 And I think the reality is that we try and manufacture quality time, but it's not quality unless we have the quantity. So my parents have said, do the quantity time and the quality will be in there, the quality times will be in there. Mm. Um, but if you don't do the quantity time, you don't get the quality time either. Hmm. Um, yeah. And I think there's a truth to that. Like, just thinking back to early now, our marriage where we tried to have quality time and things are just stilted and weren't flowing <laugh>. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. It's not something that you can necessarily man manufacture and it comes out of Yeah. Long amounts of time spent together. Mm-hmm. But I guess the flip side of that though is that you can also spend a lot of time together and not get to the kind of relating we're talking about. That's
Speaker 1 00:27:29 True too. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:30 So yeah, there is that side of it as well.
Speaker 1 00:27:33 If you're not sharing your heart Yeah. If one of you is hiding what's really important or if the other is not following Yeah. Then you can have all the quantity time in the world. Yeah. But you still won't be connecting. Yeah. Personally. Yeah. Yeah. As we move towards a close, I wanna share those questions with you again, where you can apply the kind of things we've been talking about and, and evaluate where you're at in your marriage and perhaps what a next step forward might look like for you, both in terms of sharing and, and increasing your ability to share your heart with your spouse. And, and then in terms of where you're at in tracking, in learning to follow what's important for your spouse. The first question was, if you picture a spectrum where being a, a closed book is on one side and sharing everything is on the other, where do you see yourself? And the second question was, how well do you listen to your spouse and follow what's important to them? And then I ask you to actually invite your spouse to, to answer that or you to chip in with what they think both about the level of which you share your heart with them, and also how well they feel you listen to them and, and follow what's important to them.
Speaker 1 00:29:03 So this brings us to the end of episode six. Just one final thing to leave with you is if you've got any particular questions for us that you would like us to answer in a couple of episodes time, I'd love for you to write in and communicate those to us. You could email them to me directly,
[email protected] au. That's
[email protected] au. Or alternatively, you can go to the page where this podcast lives on our church website. I've actually created a short link for that so it's easier to remember and for you to look up. It's Bitly, so B i t ly slash marriage podcast. So Bitly b it ly slash marriage podcast. You'll find the home where all these podcasts episodes live, and also a form where you can complete that online. Just submit questions, thoughts that you have that you'd love for us to interact with. I look, we'd really love to hear your thoughts and, uh, we'd like to have some time, I guess too, to process, uh, things that are real questions for you, uh, to do some thinking about them and hopefully address them in a helpful way in a couple of weeks time. Thanks again for listening.
